Curse

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Why is it that some players are convinced that the only way to beat a particular mission or quest is with a particular set of professions and skills? I spent so much playing time over the weekend trying to get into groups for the ring of fire missions that it was crazy, and it makes me understand why players have called for a better way to form groups. When I have a few hours to play a game, I want to spend that time playing, not hanging around towns waiting for that one elusive player to finally join. People are always calling for a very specific type of player. Sure you can change your skills on the fly, but I hate going out with a new build cold turkey because I'm not likely to be all that efficient at using it.

I've ended up in some pretty unconventional PUGs and had a lot of fun beating missions with them. My warrior beat Hell's Precipice with a group that consisted of six warriors and two monks. Not a Winter among us. We had a LOT of fun, yet yesterday, when another one of my characters was trying to get into a group, everyone was calling for 'ranger with winter'. In another place, they were calling for an SS necro, for a mission that I usually hench very easily without an SS necro in sight. I did a mission once with a PUG that consisted of 4 elems, a necro, and a monk. As the group leader said when we started, "This will be interesting." It was. Not only did we beat the mission easily, but it was so much fun to see what happens when four firestorms rain down at once, or four meteors, or whatever. Yet for this same mission, you'll see groups calling for anything but nukers. I've even been out in successful groups without *gasp* a monk. Is it lack of imagination? Are they following a walkthrough, convinced there's only one way to complete each mission?

And yeah, for a game like Guild Wars, there's got to be a better way to form groups than spamming chat (for when guildies aren't available or aren't applicable).

Chilly Ress · Apr 24, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Ok, first about the cookie cutter builds. The reason average GW players like them is because they are 13-year old kids who don't better or people who are so ignorant they refuse to believe anything can beat a MM and SS in SF. But, on another point. The reason people like monks, is well, because they can HEAL!!! Yes, other classes ave self healing, but almost always not enough to stand up to a mob of similar level monsters. Without a monk in many cases, certain quests and missions are anything but simple or possible.

oljomo · Apr 24, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Hi

I believe there are several parts to this:

1 if you play a tried and tested build, there will almost certainly be someone looking for you at a mission
2 the tried and tested builds work, and have been proved to work, why change a hing that isnt broken (not my personal view btw)
3 people in a tried and tested build normally dont have to be as skilled as those in a substandard build
4 things are quite oftne quicker in the standard groups (to get through the actual mission that is)

I think the major point is number 3, almost any bunch of people can og out and do a mission as a standard set, but it takes a special someone who can go out and win with a "substandard" build. For this reason i quite enjoy the different sort of build, where it really takes skill to be able to succeed as opposed ot just being lazy and doing the sae old things. (this might be part of my fondness for non-55 farming ^_^)

oljomo

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Monks I can understand. For earlier missions, you can get by without them, but they make things a heck of a lot easier. For later missions, yes, you need a monk or two. It's the other requirements that I don't understand. Groups that would rather stand in a town for half an hour to get an MM, instead of choosing someone else from the other twenty players who have asked to join. In that half-hour, they could be well on their way to finishing the mission. In fact, for one mission, there was a group asking for a very specific build. I joined another group, we completed the mission, I mapped back to the starting location for some reason that eludes me now, and the same group was still there! They hadn't even left.

Moa Bird Cultist · Apr 24, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

The simple way to get a decent PuG is, of course, to stand out from the crowd. You dont have to be mad, but it helps

A few lines of something random is usually enough to pique the interest of anyone like-minded. From there, you can start something in the district you're in, have some fun, do a dance together and just gradually build the group of people who obviously just want to have fun, because those are far and away the best groups one can form in GW

On the subject of cookie cutter builds, it is simply a case of people lacking in imagination. No offense to people who play cookie cutter builds, but it's the truth. I have also been in some strange looking pugs and i play some very different builds, that while, not the most effective, they get the job done and are a lot of fun to play. Felinette, dont let the cookie cutter mentality bother you, as it's an integral part of GW these days. You have the radical, the elite, (eVIL et al,) and the sheep, in as much as the radical are the ones who invent and play builds that are very much off the beaten track, the elite invent the most effective builds they can and then win with them and the sheep emulate the elite, some more effectively than others and some, quite shockingly

By the way, oljomo, I dont like the view that uncommon builds are somehow 'substandard' I know this isnt necessarily your view, but the whole uncommon=substandard mentality is a huge misconception. An example I could give is my Mo/Me Signet Blaster, a pure signet smiter who relies on repeatable smite signet damage by using inspiration mantras to lower cooldown and 'echo' signets. You wont ever find a group asking for that anywhere, but whenever I go down to fissure of woe with my friends, they all insist on me bringing my monk, because it makes the skeletons so easy when you can hit them for over 350 damage after a matter of seconds. Otherwise, it's an average build, but it definitely has it's place in the fissure

MelechRic · Apr 24, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

"In the fight between you and the world, back the world." --Franz Kafka

Some people want "cookie-cutter" groups because those groups typically have the highest rate of success. Your points about being able to do the mission are valid. There have been plenty of groups I've been in that were unconventional and also successful. However, when you come to these forums and complain about the lack of build variety I can only wonder about your motives. You won't succeed in getting the game changed. You won't succeed in getting people to change their minds. I guess you might get some sympathy, but that doesn't get you through missions.

This game is fairly mature, and most players have been through the content multiple times. They know what works and what doesn't so it's hard to make them try something new. My suggestion is for you to find a good guild that likes to PvE. Then you can do these missions with unconventional groups and "less desirable" builds/class combos. Then you don't need to bother with the narrow minded masses.

Cheers!

Skuld · Apr 24, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Personly I do not want a necro with every blood skill they picked up, or a ranger with barrage, a 6BM pet and domination hexes, or an elementalist with 8 fire spells. These players are using builds for against one enemy and even then its not the most efficient build.

If you convince me that your build works, or even just tell me how you use it thats fine, I dont want a general ranger though

Rayne Nightfyre · Apr 24, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Yep, that mentality bugs me also. That mentality is the sole reason why so many 'outside-the-box'(which really aren't that much 'outside-the-box') builds get rejected in PUGs, such as Mesmers, Rangers, Elementalist builds other than Fire Magic, and so on. So it's up to us as those who prefer not to play the usual boring builds to show those close-minded ones that other builds do work just as nicely, if not better. If that isn't possible, then just play with guildies, friends and henchmen.

Moa Bird Cultist · Apr 24, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Skuld, why the hate towards rangers? And just how does one define a 'general ranger'? Rangers are so versatile that generalizing them is dilficult at best.

Theus · Apr 24, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Seriously.I had to Hench my way through everything with my Me/N, even had to hench my way from Camp Rankor to Maw the Mountainhearts location.

I cant even understand why some people enjoy playing those builds in the first place.I've played a stance tank before with my warrior, it was quite possibly one of the most boring things I have ever done in GuildWars.

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Well the reason these groups are used is the same reason that you follow the assembly instructions for, let's say , a grill. You can put that grill together in a number of ways. You can assemble the parts in a different order than the listed steps but the order they tell you is usually the easiest way. It's not lack of skill, nor is it a lack of creativity, nor is it people not wanting to play the game. All it is is a matter of expediency. I don't see why anyone should go through a mission at a snail's pace for lack of a specific character type nor do I equate length of time playing to the amount of fun. I personally do not want to waste an hour and a half on a mission when I can get it done in a half hour with one of your "cookie cutter" groups. Then it's not fun to me. then it's like work. I don't want to work on my days off.

I honestly think this thread was started less as a legitimate discussion and more as a way for the OP and the others who have posted to say." I am special because I don't use cookie cutter builds or cookie cutter groups." Ok yes. You're special. There you go. We all bow at the feet of your 1337 personages. Just don't go knocking people that don't want to bother with the hassel of an ineffective group. I'm glad that you have gone through with unconventional group builds and been successful but you're the exception not the rule. It's just a lot easier to go with the tried and true methods than to gamble on whether or not some random assemblage of characters and build types will be effective. When you start knocking on people though and insinuating a lack of creativity, or lack of skill, or laziness that just makes you look cheap too. So here have a blue ribbon, feel a little superior because you are so much more creative than the rest of us peons. /sarcasm
Just in the future when you go to ask a question about something or discuss something just ask the question or start the discussion. When you start handing out multiple choice answers like laziness, uncreative, lack of skill it just shows how narrow minded you are. You are no better than you say the people that form these groups are. Basically you are saying, in a backhanded manner admittedly which I also find contemptible, but that's ok, that people should play like you otherwise they are bad. As I said you aren't saying it directly, but it is implied in your posts when you say that they lack creativity, or skill, or are lazy.

Serafita Kayin · Apr 24, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

You know, I only play non-standadrd builds. I've got a bonder necro, a hex pressure barrager, and a degen prerssure mesmer that carries a fellblade, and does NOT use IW. The first one gets in groups, and then I get asked where my minions are. I raise some. I cast a few spells, and people ask "why aren't you healing?" So I ping my life. At level 9, my health is 410 of 410.

The ranger, fewer places since I refuse to submit and be an R/Mo (I will not make myself less effective for people who can't stay alive) and since of course I'm a ranger. But, any time my guild goes somewhere they ask for me if I'm on. If you know your job, and can do it, no flavor of the month will take you out.

My mesmer is a special creature. At first, even my guildies asked if it was IW. It is not. My specific skill bar is a secret. My weapon mods are a secret. My specific armor mix is a secret (it's the underwear, and that's no joke). And I will ONLY play that character with guildies or people I trust. Anyone else and they refuse me heals. I can out DPS a hammer warrior very easily (I have shown this on request, though it was with guildies) and can solo half the game (the other half relies on me learning more moves and getting good with them) but I do take a bit more damage (I also carry 3 self heals, and do not hurt myself to use them) and I hit things, so people automatically yell "Get back you n00b" and I step back. Then everything stops dying.

I have gotten to the point of if I can't solo it I wait till guild is on. I tire of children.

felinette · Apr 24, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelechRic

However, when you come to these forums and complain about the lack of build variety I can only wonder about your motives.

LOL. I vant to take over the vorld!!! Bwa-ha-ha.

I'm not complaining about the lack of build variety. I'm complaining about how difficult it can be to get into a group and how much gaming time is wasted doing so. It's something that detracts from my enjoyment of the game, therefore I'm bitching about it, and who better to bitch to than other GW players. Frankly, I think it would be of great benefit if Anet implemented some way for group leaders and players to find each other without having to spam chat, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:

I honestly think this thread was started less as a legitimate discussion and more as a way for the OP and the others who have posted to say." I am special because I don't use cookie cutter builds or cookie cutter groups.

No. See above. I don't think cookie-cutter builds or groups are any more or less special than the non-variety. I just don't understand why players hold out so long for a build they think is essential, when they could actually be playing the game. Notice I said cookie-cutter groups, NOT cookie-cutter builds. Even someone with a cookie-cutter build, and I have a few of those, can have a problem getting into a group if their cookie isn't the right flavour.

So chill.

Phaern Majes · Apr 24, 2006, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Bragfest!!!!

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Bragfest!!!!

QFT!

It is a bragfest and nothing more and I love how we are the narrow minded masses when, as I said, they are backhandedly saying that people who play these group builds are somehow lesser players. It is insinuated throughout the majority of posts here when it is not flat out said. Talk about elitist and narrow minded. This is a pointless thread that serves only as a platform for people who can't get into groups to put up their individuality flag and play the misunderstood innovator. Whatever helps them sleep at night it's fine by me I just don't see the need to make a public spectacle of it. Why not just nail yourselves to crosses while you are at it.

Theus · Apr 24, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

QFT!

It is a bragfest and nothing more and I love how we are the narrow minded masses when, as I said, they are backhandedly saying that people who play these group builds are somehow lesser players. It is insinuated throughout the majority of posts here when it is not flat out said. Talk about elitist and narrow minded. This is a pointless thread that serves only as a platform for people who can't get into groups to put up their individuality flag and play the misunderstood innovator. Whatever helps them sleep at night it's fine by me I just don't see the need to make a public spectacle of it.

Troll Harder please.

General Surena · Apr 24, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I am getting tired of this too, that's why I prefer soloing FoW rather than going with 3 Eles, 3 Monks, 1 Nekro, 1 Librarian. Just 3-4 days ago I tried to convince some jerk that I can interrupt and tank as well, with shock, distraction blow etc, besides that taking a full stance build in Fow is overly retarded anyway. He wouldn't understand or believe a single word I said. Dunno why I've been patiently trying to explain it. "Tank and Interrupts, lol wtf" Yeah right.

Did you notice the arrogance of the pro-cookie cutter farmers in SF when taking someone along who's in there for the first time? From the 10 runs I bothered to join in the last days not a single group was eager to teach the poor tank how to move, position. No, instead they cursed yelled, requested their precious time back (funny coming from farmers) For every "Noob" floating through the server system there should be a permanent Level decrease.

Well, if people have fun playing the same thing over and over again, more power to them. Friendlist for the win.

My PUGs are not "bring your favorite build" but I never force people to use certain well-known builds. Want to play Mesmer in the FoW/UW, Water-Ele, any kind of Ranger. As long as people are not jerks and it benefits the team concept it's totally fine to me.

Str0b0 · Apr 24, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

It's not trolling it's truth and allow me to show you via quotes from the posters here.

My one point was that this is a backhanded way to put down players who choose to play in tried and true group builds. They say it isn't but let me see here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilly Ress

The reason average GW players like them is because they are 13-year old kids who don't better or people who are so ignorant they refuse to believe anything can beat a MM and SS in SF. But, on another point.

Ignorant. that's flattering and also not at all a put down is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by oljomo

For this reason i quite enjoy the different sort of build, where it really takes skill to be able to succeed as opposed ot just being lazy and doing the sae old things.

There we have the implication of a lack of skill and the flat out accusation of laziness. That's not trolling or flaming at all though is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moa Bird Cultist

On the subject of cookie cutter builds, it is simply a case of people lacking in imagination.

So that's also a good thing? Just because you put no offense after it does not mean that it mitigates the insult.

But because I do not agree with the majority in this thread I am the troll. GJ! Love that reading comprehension there. Whatever though. I think my point has been made. So once more tried and true build people are narrow minded? Hypocrisy anyone?

Stabber · Apr 24, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

Why is it that some players are convinced that the only way to beat a particular mission or quest is with a particular set of professions and skills?

The problem in a nutshell is that you are seeking variety in a style of play where variety has no tangible benefits. The opponents you face will have no variety, and neither will their strategies. Why deviate from what's known to work?

As the cliche goes, if you desire variety, you have to PvP.

If that does not suit you, just wait for Factions. It will be a few months (I hope) before the cookies are cut, so you can have some interesting times.

Count to Potato · Apr 24, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

In human physchology many people are reluctant of change, one build stays forever and people don't like to change things that work. Consider IWAY since the addition of a martyr trapper it hasnt changed much, Hells Precipice is the same, commonly you would use a ranger with winter.